Okay, so last night I received a review for my story Shocking Situation, with which some of you may be familiar. Before anyone starts wondering, this review was not from anyone on Dokuga (as far as I know), and I consider it a critique rather than a flame.


very cute... but I really wish taht someone would write kagome a bit more intelligent... I mean she knows the history... she knows about youkai and instincts but yet every story I read has her obstinantly trying to be a woman of the 21st century with rights and equality to men... you would think that someone that wants to live in the past would know how to behave there... at least fake it till time catches up.


This was my reply . . . sort of. For some reason I can't find the actual reply in my outbox, so I am unable to C&P. Also, I will admit that, hey it was New Years, I might have been little tipsy and some of the things I wrote may not be exactly accurate.

Ahh. . . but that's part of the comedy.

When you think about it, why does Kagome still wear her school-girl uniform while traipsing across Feudal Japan, fighting demons and such? Most likely it is because Rumiko Takahashi and her original audience thought it was funny.

Yes, Kagome probably knows her history and knows a little about youkai instincts, as well. But that does not mean that she feels the need to hold herself to those same standards. Keep in mind that one of her closest friends is a female demon slayer -- a profession that does not typically include women. Also, mikos seem to earn a bit more respect than the average woman of that time period.

Besides, history is littered with women who did not fit the norm, and many held themselves equal to men. If Kagome really knows her history, then she would know some of these facts, too, and that would only strengthen her resolve to demand to be treated as a man's equal.

*Blinks* Forgive my inner feminist lecturing. I can get carried away at times. The point I am trying to make is that Kagome's behavior is not necessarily due to a lack of intelligence. But she was raised with certain values, and they are a part of her, part of her personality. I like to think that her obstinacy is one of the things that attracts Sesshoumaru, in the first place.

I can't imagine making her close off a part of her personality for 500 years, just so she can fit in. Also, if she pretended to act the part, I wonder at what point would she realize that she was no longer pretending (if that makes any sense at all).

Thank you for the interesting review. It was thought-provoking and I couldn't stop myself from replying. As if I haven't babbled enough, I'll leave you with a couple of favorite quotes, although I'm not sure who wrote either.

"Women who behave rarely make history."

"Subvert the dominant paradigm."




Now, we have been exchanging a couple of PMs that are just light-hearted debate. I don't know anything about her education as far as Japanese history goes, nor do I know anything about her background. But some of her comments regarding how Kagome would normally be treated for her behavior do concern me. Particularly the idea that Kagome's behavior would earn punishment.

Personally, I don't find her behavior all that appalling when she is interacting with people other than the members of her group. Yes, she may seem a little odd to others, but I don't think it would be anything that would make the men of that era want to physically punish her.

Then again, while I have studied a lot of history, I am still pretty weak when it comes to Japanese history. I am not very familiar with the general values of modern Japan, either, but it has always been my opinion that, whatever the cultural standard may be, there are always exceptions to the rule. I also imagine that modern teenagers in Japan may have a lot more western influence than previous generations, and that will affect their behavior, as well.

So, I was just wondering what some of y'all's opinions might be about this. Am I wrong about how I think Kagome would be treated in the Feudal Era because I am applying my American standards to the situation?

I don't think you are wrong, I think that some of us don't understand Japanese rules.

Were you debating modern Japaneses society, and how she would be treated now...

or

how she would be treated in Feudal Era Japan, if she acted like a modern Japanese girl, wearing that short little outfit.

If she were in the past, acting like a modern teenage girl, I don't think that they would have a good opinion of her.

In modern day Japan, I think she is most likely acting like the typical girls of her time.

I, like you, have studied history, but not much Asian history. But in general, I assume, that duty and honor would have guided her decisions in the past, not what she wanted for herself. A modern day teenager, from most parts of the world, would have an issue with that and yes unfotunanetly she most likely would have been disiplined in the past for acting "modern". This most likely would have been the case in many eras that she would have gone back to. Many ancient and past cultures would not have minded the skin shown, but not the attitude. There were/are some Native American Tribes, that were a matriarchial society, and women had more rights. Women in ancient Rome could own property, but not vote.

So, were as I think that her friends accept her, I don't think that the men of the past would have disiplined her, but the older women of the village.

Our debate was a little of both. For one, the argument was that she acts more like a modern American teenager than a Japanese teenager (and teenagers, despite the era, are going to be treated like children, and that Japanese women generally are more docile than American women -- both points I did not agree on). Then you throw that attitude into the Feudal Era, and that is where the problem would be.

It's not like she spits in their faces and tells them that they can't control her. From what I have seen in the manga and anime, she seems to behave with proper respect when dealing with the people of that time period. Although I am sure that some modern mannerisms would pop up here and there and raise a few eyebrows, I don't think any of it would warrant physical punishment on a daily basis, especially not from random village men.

Although you do have an interesting point, Lady Orrin, that the women of that era would most likely correct her behavior, if they felt a need to do so. It would probably be more appropriate.

I think its the idea of the punishments that this reviewer kept brining up that's really getting to me. I keep imagining a public stoning, or something like that, and I kind of wonder how accurate that would be for this particular culture in this time period . . . and would her slightly different behavior deserve such punishment?

CritterWhisperer wrote:
The argument was that she acts more like a modern American teenager than a Japanese teenager (and teenagers, despite the era, are going to be treated like children, and that Japanese women generally are more docile than American women -- both points I did not agree on).

From what I have seen in the manga and anime, she seems to behave with proper respect when dealing with the people of that time period. Although I am sure that some modern mannerisms would pop up here and there and raise a few eyebrows, I don't think any of it would warrant physical punishment on a daily basis, especially not from random village men.

Although you do have an interesting point, Lady Orrin, that the women of that era would most likely correct her behavior, if they felt a need to do so. It would probably be more appropriate.

I keep imagining a public stoning, or something like that, and I kind of wonder how accurate that would be for this particular culture in this time period . . . and would her slightly different behavior deserve such punishment?

I just wanted to throw my two cents in on a few of the issues you brought up.

1.Honestly I have no knowledge of how a Japanese teenager may act compared to myself, however, from watching the anime series I really see no major difference. Kagome and her friends talked of boys and embarrassing situations, they hung out at Wac Donalds and did basically normal teenager things that I see right here in America. Now I'm sure culturally there are some differences but perhaps none so great.

But one thing I personally think is being overlooked that the term and status of teenager is a relatively new term that has been created within the last I want to say seven or eight decades (I can be a bit off by some decades) my point being that when she went into the past she would be looked upon as a young woman probably of a good marriage age, not a child at all. For they looked upon reaching your early twenties as being an old maid in some cultures.

2/3. From the anime I notice Kagome as being a bit naiive, loud and outspoken at times but as you stated why would the men deal with that as oppose to the older women who would surely scold or approach her. And as far as I've watched shes never been disrespectful.

No, I believe punishment would only arise if she was part of some sort of group or status in society. Maybe present during some type of royal court business or if she was one of the geishas in that type of service. Even possibly in Sesshomaur's castle where everything would be assumed to have an order and rank would she probably be punished a bit more severly but I don't think just going through village to village would be a reason...no. Her unique behavior would not draw as much attention as to warrant physical punishment, in my opinion, they would think her either odd, crazy or whatever the case may be but not harm her. Especially with her being a miko.

*side note* I've been taking history basically all my life in school and yet if you threw me back 500 years in the past I can't guarentee I would act as that time would require me too and/or know/follow the expectations of that area given my own up bringing here.

I agree with you completely about her age, and you make a good point about how Kagome would be more likely to receive punishment if she were in a more structured setting such as being in a royal court, being a geisha, or even being a permanent member of a village. I can see that she would at least receive correction whenever she would do something that was not fitting for her position, but it would not likely be in the form of severe punishment -- a scolding or a slap on the hand, maybe, but not something like a beating. Of course, that would also depend on what she did wrong and her attitude toward it.

And I agree that her being a miko makes a difference, too. Being a wandering miko, she is not likely to be punished for her odd behavior, especially when she is often doing something to aid the various villages she visits.

Thanks for your input. I feel a little more secure in my opinion that, at least in the anime, Kagome is not being an obnoxious teenager who is mouthing off to people and demanding that she be treated as a man's equal. I'll admit that in my story I do have her being very vocal and obstinate over not wanting to be treated like an object. I do it mainly for the comedy, but I also like to think that I am keeping her in character, that she is not being a spoiled brat over that issue, and that I am not writing too much of my own American attitude and values into it (that is, if any single set of values can be classified as American ).

That last sentence probably didn't make any sense. Oh, well.

Arc-an angel raised a good point about rank... Kags is not your typical village girl, she is a priestess. Does that garner you, as a female, more leway to speak yor mind do your own thing? It may have. In some societies people representing God or Gods had ALOT of political clout. Would this have been the case for Kagome?

Lady Orrin wrote:
Arc-an angel raised a good point about rank... Kags is not your typical village girl, she is a priestess. Does that garner you, as a female, more leway to speak yor mind do your own thing? It may have. In some societies people representing God or Gods had ALOT of political clout. Would this have been the case for Kagome?

Usually with higher political clout and reverence comes a higher demand to be proper and respectful. That might actually work against her rather than for her. A catholic priest who wears the traditional garb and speaks in the dialect he's supposed to will be respected more than one who wears Hawaiian shirts everyday.

In fact, people may distrust or dislike someone who doesn't seem to take their religious position as seriously as their followers take it. Villagers of the Shinto faith may actually shun a priestess who doesn't follow proper protocols or dress and find her declaration of being a priestess insulting.

ladybattousai wrote:

Usually with higher political clout and reverence comes a higher demand to be proper and respectful. That might actually work against her rather than for her. A catholic priest who wears the traditional garb and speaks in the dialect he's supposed to will be respected more than one who wears Hawaiian shirts everyday.

In fact, people may distrust or dislike someone who doesn't seem to take their religious position as seriously as their followers take it. Villagers of the Shinto faith may actually shun a priestess who doesn't follow proper protocols or dress and find her declaration of being a priestess insulting.

The respect a Catholic priest earns would also be related to how long he has been with a particular parish and where it is located. Of course, I'm a little biased on that . . . growing up in the military, most priests I knew were either in the Army or Air Force, and while they were every bit devout to their calling and vows and earned respect from the members of the parish, they hardly kept themselves on a pedestal as if they should be revered for their holy wisdom. Although, I couldn't say anything about how a priest, say 500 years ago, would be treated if he acted or dressed in way that people did not expect (those were rocky times in Church history). And I kind of let myself get off the point.

I can understand the idea that Kagome might be shunned for not dressing like a proper priestess and behaving different, but given that she was raised on a shrine, she would still be well-versed in Shinto beliefs and would treat most other aspects of her position with the proper respect.

But in the manga, does she really go around declaring herself a priestess and expecting villagers to show the proper respect? It seems to me that she has more of a habit of simply offering help when needed, without making any claims to being a priestess. Would the fact that she was being an aid to different people earn her a certain amount of appreciation and respect on it's own?

I agree that she doesn't tout herself as being a priestess, but as simply someone who has priestess powers. She's not traveling across Feudal Japan to do the work of a priestess, but to collect the Shikon shards and to undo the initial damage her presence caused. When she chose to come back, she came back to be a priestess and chose to wear the garb and to pursue the life expected of her station. Will she be successful and accepted? Of course. Will she go around offending villagers? Who knows, but I doubt it.

Frankly, it's a manga and it only somewhat adheres to reality. I don't think anyone truly acted like they were in the era they were from, natives to it or not. There really weren't youkai present during the feudal era, so by introducing them, you change human behavior.

On the off-on-a-tangent side, I think priests 300-500 years ago cannot be likened to priests of our present age. The Spanish Inquisition took place about 500 years ago. The Salem Witch Trials occurred even more recently and if we go with Japan, Christians were heavily persecuted and killed less than 200 years ago.

LadyBattousai, why is your karma so weird? and did you get the Pm I sent ya?

My karma is weird, because MissK gave it to me. Kind of like how Skye's karma is weird.

lol ohhh

ladybattousai wrote:
I agree that she doesn't tout herself as being a priestess, but as simply someone who has priestess powers. She's not traveling across Feudal Japan to do the work of a priestess, but to collect the Shikon shards and to undo the initial damage her presence caused. When she chose to come back, she came back to be a priestess and chose to wear the garb and to pursue the life expected of her station. Will she be successful and accepted? Of course. Will she go around offending villagers? Who knows, but I doubt it.

Frankly, it's a manga and it only somewhat adheres to reality. I don't think anyone truly acted like they were in the era they were from, natives to it or not. There really weren't youkai present during the feudal era, so by introducing them, you change human behavior.


I don't know if I have managed to really get across what I am trying to figure out here. I may be a little confused about it, myself, and gotten a little side-tracked. This all started because I was debating with a reviewer who seems to be of the opinion that Kagome acts like an obnoxious teenager who demands to be treated as a man's equal (while I can't say that isn't true for some fics, I don't really see that behavior in the manga) in an era that would not stand for such behavior, and that behavior would earn her severe punishment.

She doesn't really say what kind of punishment Kagome would receive, but I get the feeling that she would expect something on the level of actual beatings. I have no doubt that a disobedient woman of that era, no matter the country, could receive beatings in that era, but I wonder if Kagome's behavior would be perceived to be bad enough to earn such punishments.

I realize it is manga, a fantasy story, and that most of the people in it do not behave as we think people of that era would. . . but I wonder about this for the sake of trying to achieve some accuracy in my own writing (not everything I ever write will be comedies that push the silliness of Kagome being a high school girl falling down a magical well).

If you want to achieve historical accuracy on social interactions in your writing, debating it here won't fruit much. What this young woman implies in her review is just as reliable as any unresearched opinion. I haven't researched it either and I'm only basing my argument on common sense, thus my thoughts on it are truthfully no better.

If you want to become a better writer whose work accurately reflects the societies of its setting, then you have to do the research. You have to look up information on the place of women in Feudal Japan and the expectations put upon them. You have to look up the repercussions that result when they step out of line.

Google Scholar is an excellent resource for published papers and books on a wide variety of topics. You're better off finding your answer there than finding it here.

Lady B, thanks for the advice, but I wasn't suggesting that this thread would be a replacement for actual research. I thought getting the opinions of people who may have some first-hand experience in modern Japanese culture, or who may have more knowledge on Japanese history would be a good supplement to any research I do.

That being said, I will leave this thread alone now. I get the feeling you are tired of seeing it pop up. Sorry about that.

Truthfully, I don't mind a good debate and this topic isn't bothersome like you imagine. I do hope that you found some sort of answer and that you won't let snarky reviewers make you second guess yourself or keep you from your craft.